Black minister's billboard: "gay rights are not civil rights"

So what type of rights would they be? I guess hetro's what gays to remain sub-citizens. I hope he doesn't speak for the majority of society.

Freedom of speech and as long as the face of gay is white, and privileged, blacks and others who claim to be Christians will never get the message of this poorly written article.

This minister missed a few television news stories and apparently a good portion of the bible. A minister who uses money to slam the efforts of God's Children to share equally in the legal rights afford everyone has certainly lost his sense of priorities. The countless children in shelters, families now homeless, crime rates up and this man invests in what he feels is more important than the social poverty surrounding him. I'll pray for his soul. Gay men and women face physical violence and emotional persecution daily. I myself was attacked by a group of black men, not because I'm white, but because I am gay. Matthew Shepard was beaten tied to a fence and left to die. A church in Bridgeport beat a child to get the evil of gay out of this poor teenager. The number of gay and men and women who have suffered gay bashing, have lost their jobs, have been imprissoned because they are gay goes back in this countries and all countries history. The news may not broadcast it, but a quick google search and you'll see gay men and women are always living in fear. Many of us can not say a word about our private lives or the person we love at work for fear of being harassed. My car has been spray painted, my house vandalized, and each day I get up go to work and live the life I was meant to live. To the minister who because we never rode in the back of the bus, let me explain the Red Cross won't take our blood in times of crisis. Medical centers have refused care, churches have pushed us out. We watch our lives built as a couple become taxed and taken when one of us dies. The soliders who lost 18 - 19 years of service to retire with nothing because someone else outed them, yet have hero records of service to this country, turned away in shame with nothing. For many of us not in major cities with gay areas of business we celebrate our anniversaries at home, since no resturants want to serve a romantic dinner to (2) men. We attend weddings and family functions alone, because our own families reject us and will not allow our partners in the same room. To the minister too blinded by his own prejudice, and guilty before God of judging his fellow man I will remind him to walk a mile in own shoes before deciding we haven't struggled with civil rights. Let him google Stonewall Riots, and follow the rippling riots throughout the world that have allowed us to be heard for the first time in centuries. Ignorance is not a God given right to be Selfish and to use his resources to stop a fellow man from equality. It's not in the bible that Christ acted that way, and this minister is using his title to justify his own bigotry.

Miche, what were you trying to say? White men are victims? Sorry, don't think that's the case since white and male is still the best thing to be in this world. The nonsense of this billboard is wrong, but, the person who paid for it has a right to say it and its nowhere near as bad as some of the anti-black tripe that flowed from just about every white gay person in this country after Prop 8. So, sorry, you may not be the typical white gay racist, but, your words are as hollow as all out and I'm sure you like most white gay men and women would be calling this Oen Dollin, and, what kind of name is that, a n-word in a heart beat and have in private while disculling this non-issue.

I have three sons and I'm asking Jehovah God right now in the name of Jesus that they are not gay. I don't understand the gay concept. I'm not sure, but everything about being gay seems like it's all about sex. The first thing that comes to a person's mind is how gays have sex and what body parts are used. It just does not sound right. Who cares!

Lanlady, what you should be 'praying' for is your sons to be happy, healthy, successful upstanding men, its already in their genes as to what their sexuality will be, and, no matter how hard you 'pray' that's not going to change. And, if you are a good mother, you will accept them no matter what, which is what loving parents do. And just what man isn't all about sex? Sorry to break it down for you, but, straight men think about it all the time as well.

Only homophobic people argue that gay rights is not a civil rights issue.

I think its two fold, blacks see gay as white and as long as its gay and white, to them and most others in this country there can't be any discrimination as we all know white is still right and there isn't a white man in this country who gets discriminated against for anything, not what some want to hear but its the truth, gay rights just needs its own tag line and stop saying they are being treated like blacks were 40 years ago, which they all know is a lie. And, its going to be hard to tell folks something that they have been tuaght is wrong its right, even though I could care less who sleeps with whom. That said, the gay community needs to get out and face people with why they feel they need special rights and are victims of society, until then, good luck trying to get them as I still don't see why two issues are all they whine about going into the military and getting married and saying 400 years of oppression and continued oppression is similar to that.

So I guess the Fort Worth police who went into a gay bar and beat them for no reason, sending some to the hospital doesn't count. Or the boy who killed himself for being tormented by fellow Middle School students with anti-gay slurs. Or Matthew Shepherd who was murdered. What's the difference between calling a kid a "fag" and the N word? If I walked in that church and screamed the N word I'd be labeled racist. If I walked in and screamed "Fag" nobody would care. One word: HYPOCRITES. Jesus=Peace, not Hate.

Equal Rights to ALL! .. correct? Am I forgetting something. Isn't that what you fought for? Gays are part of "all". So they are entitled to the same basic rights for which you fought for. You didn't say "Equal Rights to all, but gays of course".

Just what does a drunk white gay guy getting beat down by a white policeman have to do with blacks and their continued second class citizenship? matt Shepard was killed by two white men, not two black men. Nothing, so, spare us the line that poor white men are victims, when all you do is spew the n-word when you don't get what you have been taught all your lives are special rights. There should be no legalized anti-gay laws on the books, but, the plight of white men and women does not compare to blacks at all, no matter how you try and justify it, since at last check, you can still get the best jobs, at last glance black male unemployment was double white men, gay or straight, housing and don't have to worry about just being black and getting hate from all the world.

Hey, Mike. Your "typical white gay racist" comment is pretty narrow and condemming. Did you learn your views from "Skip" Gates? It's no secret that black racism and anti-gay hostility are problems in our nation. We have to acknowledge these problems before we can work toward addressing and rectifying them.

Bob, it is what it is, white gay men as a whole as racist as straight white men, and after the Prop 8 debate they were spewing the n-word like a Klansman and, most still do on any gay white blog when any black picture appears, no matter the story line, sorry if the truth bugs you, but, it is what it is and maybe you need to be trying to educate them about hate, since they seem to be victims and not realize their own hate or leave black folks out of their alleged 'fight' for equality. Or, as you put it "anti-black racism" is less important than calling out the virulent anti-black, gay or straight white gay racism? Or, do white gays get a pass on their hate and intolerance? Oh yeah, white gay men and that privilege of white skin strikes yet again, all the while screaming for tolerance, the only thing you left out was what MLK would have said. And just why do white gays care about what blacks think, its not as if any of you have dealings with or care about the black community and the real issues that face them other than gentrification on the cheap in black areas.

What the minister, and many homophobic blacks fail to understand, is that many gay white men and women helped blacks in their struggle to end race-based discrimination. It may even be that some gay whites died in the struggle; I know that many were jailed, along with the blacks that they were helping. Moreover, the minister should understand that many gay men and women are black; it's not as though all gay persons are white.

Of course the discrimination faced by gay men and women, regardless of race, is not the same as race-based discrimination. However, the fact that it is not the same is no reason to trivialize it; it is still hurtful and damaging, to the point that it sometimes even results in suicide.

People who will not stand up for the rights of others have no right to expect others to stand up for their rights.

Demonstrated behavior and the color of one's skin are two different things, but both fall into a similar category of freedom. You have the right to love whoever you desire and only God can judge you. You have the right to surround yourself with those people of color just like you but Man can call you a Bigot. He can also call you a bundle of sticks, but that doesn't make it right. I've got no problem with anyone fight for freedom. I just don't want it in public. I don't want heterosexuals slobbering over each other in public.

Jones of course you would be on the side of not being able to speak freely, after all, you have a white woman and most black men with white women, you should be the last to discuss anything about relationships, since for you white is always right. And, FRE, where is your proof, other than the use of a MLK line in most white gays demanding blacks help for your rights? next you'll be saying Harvey Milk was fighting the way blacks were treated in SF. Sorry, I just can't get over how white gay men are always telling blacks that the struggle is the same, when the fact of the matter is that the average gay white male will call any black the n-word faster than the average straight male and none of you will ever say why its so important for blacks to stand with you, which is never going to happen until you address your own racism, which all of you say is a small % or does not exist since how can white gays be racist when they are daily victims of white straights and black straights. I have no issue with equal rights, I do have one with white gay folks like Dan Savage and white gay blogs like Queerty that allow racism to flow and none of thier posters/readers seeing anything wrong with it and most gleefully jump in with the hate.

what kind of a ministerial mind preoccupies itself with gay rights to an extent of putting up a bill board?

nhlanla, I agree, with all the issues facing people in this down turned economy, it does not make sense, that money could have went to a food bank, or a back to school program for kids, but, its thier choice of how to spend thier money and maybe those who are unhappy with the message need to put up a counter one.

Mike,

I never stated that gays' struggle for civil rights is the SAME as blacks' struggle for civil rights. They are not the SAME, but there are many similarities and there is much in common. Any fair-minded person could easily see that.

I could easily enough enumerate several differences in civil rights problems between gays and blacks, but I see no point in doing so. However, I shall emphasize one important difference, i.e., the lack of support that many gay men and women face.

Black parents clearly understand the problems that their children are likely to face as the result of being black in a country where there is still significant racial prejudice. Therefore, they strive to prepare their children for the problems which they are likely to face. Often, that is not true with gays.

My parents did not prepare me for the problems which I would face as the result of being gay. Rather, when I was outed, they disowned me. Black parents do not disown their children for being black.

Blacks are generally members of social and religious organizations which help them deal with the prejudice which they are likely to face. Until recently, we gays had no such supportive organizations, and many, especially those living in small towns, still do not. Even now, sometimes parents disown their gay children, and many churches still put down people for being gay. Blacks have never had to deal with that.

As a result of negative attitudes towards themselves as the result of being gay in a hostile society, the suicide rate among young gays is extremely high. Although it is impossible to get accurate statistics, surveys have indicated that young gay persons are much more likely to be thinking about suicide than are non-gays. Although it is not uncommon for blacks to have a negative attitude towards themselves as the result of racial prejudice, that problem is much more common among gays.

I, a gay white man, was very outspoken in favor of fair and equal treatment for blacks, even before there was a significant gay rights movement. At times, I got into heated arguments over it and even lost friends as a result. Thus, I see it as quite reasonable for me to object when some blacks insist that gay persons have no rights and that by working for equal rights, we gay persons are undermining the rights of blacks.

Unfortunately, in many cases, this seems to be a matter of whose ox is being gored. I have no sympathy for those who demand their own rights while criticizing those of us who insist that our rights are also important. People who are indifferent to the rights of others have forfeited their right to expect others to support them.

Well FRE, it seems as though you white gay folks should be trying to educate your own people about tolerance and acceptance instead of whining about how homophobic blacks are and demanding that blacks should feel and assuage your pain which is inflicted by whites, since at last glance whites still run the country. I don't think that anyone should have laws in effect against them as human rights know no color, gender or sexuality, but, at the same time the virulent white racism after Prop 8 turned me off totally and the saddest thing of all is it still thrives in the white gay community unabated and in the end, white gays will still lhave it better than black gays, that's the way it is in the US and always will be, sadly that is a fact and we all know it. That said, I guess you would be the first white gay person on a board that I have not seen as a racist and blame blacks for all that is wrong with them, that is amazing.

Gays eventually have to fight Christians for total equality. Only when this fable religion which was forced on Blacks by White masters crumbled, can the world have real peace. It is a simple fact a lot of people choose to ignore for too long.

That's just it Vincent, as long as God, Jesus, Israel and the holy ghost is in the mix, good luck trying to show the average black, or for that matter any Christian that its ok to give gays full citizenship, not going to happen soon. Black's will vote with the GOP before they give in on this issue, which is why there needs to be tolerance and education on gay issues instead of the gay rights= black civil rights, wrong way to go about it as the majority of blacks find it offensive. And the face in the black community speaking for gay rights needs to be black, no black person is ever going to believe that a white man is getting the short end of the stick on anything in a country that's set up for him to succeed, no matter who and how he gets his freak on.

Mike,

Your assumption that we whites are not attempting to educate other whites about racism is invalid. Many of us have been attempting to do that for years. Obviously it is possible to be annoyed with black clergy who supported CA proposition 8 and still push for racial equality.

Vincent,

Perhaps you are unaware that the recent general convention of the Episcopal Church, which is the ruling body of the church, voted overwhelmingly in favor of full marriage equality for gay persons. It also decided that holy orders should not be denied to gay persons, i.e., that gay persons can be priests and bishops. Granted it took decades to reach that point, but we did it!! And, I must claim some of the credit. When I lived in Minneapolis, I established Integrity Twin Cities, which was the local chapter of the national organization for gay men and women in the Episcopal Church. I am still involved with Integrity.

It should also be pointed out that, unfortunately, historically speaking, constant warfare has been the normal state of the world. Warfare was the constant state before the advent of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Thus, it is illogical to assume that warfare would end if Judaism, Christianity, and Islam ceased to exist. These religions do not CAUSE wars so much as they are the excuse for wars. If people actually followed the religions, which they commonly fail to do, wars would not exist.

Consider the history of ancient Rome. Surely you are aware that Rome, even before the advent of Christianity, engaged in warfare with several other nations. Surely that indicates that eliminating Judaism, Christianity, and Islam would be unlikely to eliminate wars.

Kevin,

I agree that blacks would be considerably more effective than whites in persuading black clergy to support equality for gay men and women. I hope that you are working to get support for equality for gays, but your views on religion would limit your ability to do so.

FRE, a self-professed gay white man, wrote "Black parents do not disown their children for being black". Duh. That statement is at once illustrative of how gay white people just go completely off the rails in their desperate attempts to draw parallels and the fundamental difference between being gay and being black. Ethnicity is part of a person's lineage and comes from parents, grandparents, etc. Sexuality begins and ends with the individual. And unlike race it is malleable. Yes it is. Sexuality can also be concealed while you reap the benefit of having the majority's skin color. Ask former NJ governor Jim McGreevey.

FRE, I think you do mean well, but, your tone is rather condescending, and, that's the issue with most white gay men, they are mad they aren't getting what was promised to them, and, as usual the only scapegoat they know to kick are blacks. The false information about Prop 8 is still swirling around as it was in your post, ever check the numbers of other groups that voted for it? the black population isn't the highest in the state, and, yet, they get all the blame, speaks volumes about your need for rights, when its still the easy way out to blame the n-word as all of you do, which is why your pleas that you are victims is a joke and just as vile as that freedom of speech sign. Maybe some soul searching and actually getting to know real black people would be a good thing, and, nope, not the ones who date you, they don't have black thoughts and will do your bidding no matter what for validation.

I think homophobia is worse than racism, and I experience both of them. Ignorance and prejudice against gays for their sexual orientation is more PERSONAL. With homophobia, gays face discrimination from their own family members. Frankly, it's more of a personal type of insult than racism. Although blacks have faced racism, they still have their family and friends who support them. With gays, we often lose the support of family and friends due to their ignorance and prejudice against us. Again, I think homophobia is worse than racism. Homophobia= Prejudice from family members and the outside world. Racism= Prejudice from the outside world.

Fre, I'm a 29-year-old black gay man, and I agree with you. My father can be often homophobic, and that's my personal and hurtful than racism. I am a member of the black community and the gay community. Personally, homophobia is more dangerous than racism. Although, racism is a great evil that currently affects me and other black people. I cannot change my skin color I cannot change the fact that I have feelings for the same sex.

Mike,

No where did I state that black clergy were solely responsible for the passage or CA proposition 8. They couldn't have been solely responsible since even if they had got all their followers to support proposition 8, it obviously could not have passed without support from others since blacks are a minority in CA. Nevertheless, we do know that many black clergy have been very outspoken in their belief that somehow supporting gay rights undermines efforts to work towards ending racial discrimination. It's similar to the idea that some people have that those of us who support same-sex marriage are undermining opposite-sex marriage.

Jsean, a self-professed non-white non-gay man, seems to believe that those of us who are gay are so from choice. If I chose to be gay, then why, before I finally accepted myself, did I see a psychiatrist for 7 consecutive years in an attempt to change my sexual orientation? Why do many gay men marry women in the belief and hope that by doing so they can change their sexual orientation?

For some people, sexual orientation may be somewhat malleable. However, some people are romantically interested in both sexes, although not usually to the same degree. Their experiences confuse some people into believing that any gay person can change his / her sexual orientation.

jsean, are you a straight person trying to educate gay people on their sexual orientation? I am a male. Should I educate a woman on who she is? I am also black. Should a white person try to educate me on being black. See, that's the problem with a lot of you straight people. How can you educate us about being gay if you are not one? I cannot change my skin color, nor can I change being gay. Bottom line: If you are not gay, you can't educate us on who we are. I cannot educate you on being heterosexual either, because that is not who I am.

FRE, I still say I think you mean well, but, your delivery is lacking and leaves me unimpressed with your sincerity as it just seems, well, insincere, and while it may play well with some token black gays with low self esteems and have to blame other blacks for it and will jump with the same white gays who hate them like they do with the Obama hate, yep, airing that dirty laundry since they can't move past what someone said to them and think that it will go away with laws, overall, it won't change anyone's mind or heart, maybe with the next generation but not in the USA in 2009, no matter how much some screech about how they have been wronged, we all have, man up and deal with it and stop blaming others. Want change, do it through the law, not pity pleas and woe is me, I'm a white guy who happens to be gay can't get a break and its all those alleged homophobic blacks fault, since they are the only ones who are homophobic the rest of the world feels our pain.

Mike, maybe it's people like you who are too afraid to challenge the ignorance of black heterosexual people. Black gay folks are good for attacking each other. As soon as straight black folks speak loud, we run in the opposite direction. Maybe they have hynotized you and others with their ignorance. Therefore, you attack other gay folks. Bottom line: black folks need to stop acting like they the only group of people who faced discrimination. ANY group of people can use the words "civil rights." Racism is evil and disgusting. But we cannot sit back and let 'heterosexuals' whine about the discrimination they face, while they practice prejudice against others. Dr. King spoke for all people, not just heterosexual black folks.

Mel Smith, spare me the Dr King stuff, it has nothing to do with this issue no matter how fast and furious you type it or chant it to yourself, its as insincere as when the white guys say it as they call Obama a n%(*&^ and don't mean or understand what King said. You can get back to me when you deal with the racist white gay men, however I won't hold my breath on that as I'm sure you say it does not exist and if it does, they have a right to hate, and, I'll get back to you about all those big bad homophobic blacks that are keeping you and your white gay friends and lovers down. And, while you are at it, tell me how white gays are some of the highest paid in the country and yet, are 'discriminated' against? The rage and hate in some of you over the top, shrill black gay men is too much, stop being a victim, its not that hard, others have made it without begging for validation, if balcks don't want to accept you, big whoop, move on with your life. Why is it so important to have people accept you???

Mike, you are really self-hating. There is definitely a problem with racism. However, there is also a problem with homophobia in our communities. If I ignore it, I would be turning my back on the young people who have been kicked out of their homes by their parents. Should we continue to ignore the problem of homophobia, while people in our community suffer? I'm very aware of the racism in the gay community, but to turn an eye on the homophobia in black communities is dangerous. Their homophobia only contributes to other inequalities. Secret lifesyles, diseases, violence and everything occurs because of homophobia. So, I will not sit back and ignore my people suffering because of prejudice. And this has everything to do with Dr. King and his message of justice. "Why is it important to have people accept you?" Because being accepted and respected by others help us develop as human beings. Having the love and respect of our family and friends is healthy for human beings. Why challenge racism and not homophobia? Prejudice is prejudice, regardless.

Mel,

It's not only black gays who attack each other. Believe me, it happens with white gays also. It can be very difficult to get gay persons to agree to do anything that would make them better off. However, at one time, it was even worse.

Way back in 1975, when I founded Integrity Twin Cities (a local chapter in the national organization for gay men and women in the Episcopal Church), I became aware that many gay men were very threatened by the idea that they might become accepted. They actually wanted rejection and although I'm sure that none would have admitted it, it was obvious from their actions. I think that it was the result of internalized homophobia and that they felt rejection was suitable and just punishment for their "sinful" condition.

You mention that black gay folks are good at attacking each other. I suspect that you are seeing what I observed many years ago when I founded Integrity Twin Cities. They may be sabotaging work that would improve the quality of their lives because they believe that they don't deserve to be accepted. Considering that clergy constantly tell them how evil they are, that shouldn't be surprising. When people believe that they are inferior and worthless, they will not stand up for their rights. It's not a problem only among gay people. At one time, because of racism, many blacks also saw themselves as inferior and, as a result, would not work to overcome racism.

FRE, thanks for the insight.

Well of course Mel Smith, you would be praising the white gay man with that nonsense, low self esteem does that to you bro, but, keep telling yourself they really care about issues that affect the black glbt community, when you know deep down that they don't since when do circut parties have anything to do with the black gay guy who can't even get a job? And, as usual, the ones who love them the white boys are the ones who can't post a thing without getting catty, and, you think that blacks gay or straight will listen to that? Please, all your type does is make the hate mongers rich and keep adding people to the bandwagon of hate. man up and stop being a follower of white folks, and, that droning on about MLK is stale, even his own kids aren't pro-white gay, but in your whuite gay approach, you wouldn't know that, and, then you have the gall to say "our" community, please, Chelsea and the Castro are hardly black gay friendly, keep it real or step on to someone else.

Mike,

I suggest that instead of typing directly into the comment box, you use your word processor first. Then, re-read what you have written several times, perhaps over a period of a day or so. Then, edit and re-write until you get it right, after which you can paste it into the comment box. Often, when responses are posted too quickly and without careful thought, they do not effectively communicate what the writer meant to say.

Also, watch those run-on sentences. A good high school English teacher would completely use up his red pencil if many students wrote the way you do. In addition to making it difficult to read, long sentences which contain several thoughts convey the impression that the writer is being excessively emotional rather than thinking clearly and calmly.

I'm sure that you want people to understand your viewpoints and be influenced by them. That goal can be best accomplished by clear, careful, well-organized, and thoughtful writing.

Unfortunately, this web site does not make it clear how to insert paragraph breaks and different web sites require different methods. To insert paragraph breaks, type a left angle bracket, P, and a right angle bracket with no spaces between them.

Thanks FRE for the kindly, white,privileged gay guy advice, anything else from you vast wealth of knowledge to help a brother get to your level of prep school education. I'm sure you are just trying to be a good Christian, thanks so much for the interest and concern. And, perhaps, you would be wise to try and do the same with your posts, as they are not as coherent and Harvard Ph. d in English as you seem to think they are. And, you wonder why people take your posts as a joke? Just another white guy with issues about blacks who don't find you funny, interesting, sincere nor amusing, just trying another one whose true colors always come out in the wash, and, equal rights it ain't, maybe you should save it for mel, he or she adores you and your high intelligence on a black gay message board, which I don't get as to why you are even here as we are all so beneath you and your superior grasp of the Queen's English that the poor coloreds, and this one in particular, just can't use right according to you, LOL!

Ashamed,Shamed,Shamed...that a Black Preacher would go out of his way to increase hate or discrimination of another group is very disappionting. Young black men alone have enough issues to keep any preacher concerned with black issues busy. Leave the hate to white folks Mr.Dollins,they're damned good at it. Sir,you are taking on their issue,remember how that works once they resolve this issue. They once again won't give adam about you and your CIVIL RIGHTS.

Mike, I don't fool with white gays due to their racism. Who problem is that if SOME of Dr. King's children are homophobic jerks? I just want to get rid of all of the 'isms' in the world. Racism, sexism, homophobia, heterosexism, etc. This has nothing to do with sex. Mike, ask yourself this question: How many black heterosexual males respect the fact that you are black just like them? Racism is a more easier challenge for you than homophobia. It's difficult for all of us. Brother, the only thing I am saying is f@ck the racist whites, and f@ck the homophobic blacks/whites too. They are both the same to me

Mel Smith, this is the only thing that you have wrote that makes since, all "isms" should be gone, but, in the real world they won't and teaming up with the white gays to do the same bashing's they have done to black gays for years is a turn off. Black people know how to deal with black people and homophobia, not some white gay guy who trots in with his considering, racist undertones like all the self professed white gay men who post here for some reason. Black homophobia, needs to be addressed head on and in the face by black gays, not a bunch of white gays who try to say they feel the pain of blacks gays, that's a bald face lie since they are the exact same as white straight men, no need for anyone black other than those who will say what they can't, and sadly, the only out vocal blacks are the ones who are doing the white gay's bidding and only making alleged black homophobia worse, since I don't think every black person is homophobic, and, that's why the hate continues. And, when its coming from "churches" whose paying for it, of course white Republicans, these dumb as dirt preachers know they can get rich from the white folks by doing their bidding, with the gay choir director in tow saying nothing.

Mike, FRE seems like a decent person, and he seems sensitive to other people experiences. But, people are not perfect. Yes, there are definitely cool heterosexual black people. Try to remember that there are cool white straight/gay folks too. I don't mess with anyone who think they are superior to me because of my skin color, and I try to stay away from people who think my sexual orientation is not equal to heterosexuals.

Mel Smith, common sense and decency tells you that there are decent people of all races who mean well, and the majority could care less about who you sleep with, but this FRE guy? Sorry, just another white gay guy with issues about blacks and the need to tell black glbt's how they should run their lives and how to deal with the black church and black people in general who may have issues with same gender loving, which is hilarious, no white gay man knows what it is like to be black and gay or black and anything else, no matter how many time he says some of his best friends are black. I for one am totally not impressed as he or she comes off like Dan Savage, and, we all know the only good he see's in black gay men and it sure isn't equality. The last thing the average black person, gay, straight or trisexaul wants or needs is some condescending white gay man telling them what is right and wrong in the black community and to FRE and the rest of the "white" posters here, all they see and have no issue in saying is black=wrong.

Mike, I understand your views. To me, FRE is decent compared to my experiences with other gay white folks. But I do understand your points.

There is nothing wrong with having a fifth grade understanding of the Bible as long as you are in the fifth grade! So many times we automatically accept the teachings we hear on Sunday without any investigation of our own. Two very important works to help illuminate a deeper understandiong of religion and sexuality are (1)."For The Bible Tells Me So" a documentary by Daniel Karslake. Bishop Desmond TuTu weighs in. This DVD can be ordered online or even rented from some Blockbuster's. (2) A very good book written by a heterosexual Minister who is very learned so far as interpretations of ancient languages of original Biblical text. The book is called "The New Testament and Homosexuality" by Robin Scroggs. He states that the Bible must be seen in terms of it's historical, social and cultural context. Mob stonings and slavery were acceptable but will get you lethal injection and prison time today. Exodus 21:7 okays selling one's own daughter into slavery. God already knew about DNA but it took thousands of years for the mind of Man to catch up with the Mind of God. The same appears to be so about Human sexuality in general and Homosexuality in particular. I marvel at the many very bright prints of fabric used for wear by men of all colors for shorts. 20 years ago no man expecially a Black Man would be caught dead in public in shorts with bright florals. This book can be ordered through any bookstore or online. Dr. King and his wife, who championed Gay Rights before she died, were very good friends of Bayard Rustin an openly Gay Black man who organized the 1963 March On Washington, at Dr. King's request!

Mike: You stated that FRE is insincere in his postings. That is untrue. I have followed his insightful postings on several blogs over a couple of years. Although I do not agree with all of his comments, he IS sincere. Things you have attributed to him are off the wall. You have serious issues, man. By the way, I am black, do not have a white partner, and very aware of white racism in this country.

Mel Smith, he maybe for you, for me, nothing but the typical Chelsea white gay who offers nothing to any debate on black gay issues and after he had the gall to try and correct post on a message board it showed his real colors, another, privilege white guy who cares about them poor down trodden colored gays, sorry, I for one don't need anything from that sort, but, for those who do, no bigge to me I call them as I see them and FRE isn't anything worth posting about other than the truth and its not a positive one and needs to be trying to help his fellow white gays on Queerty or Towleroad who have as more issues with black gays than the homophobic black church.

Mike, I understand you.

Mike: We all have issues, even ME. The only difference is I do not use a scatter gun approach to direct my anger. I use a laser beam to target the person or organization that caused my pain. The way or tone I replied to you above, not the content of my reply, troubles me. Peace!

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Zune and iPod: Many people compare the Zune to the Touch, but having seen how slim and surprisingly small and light it is, I contemplate it to be a rather unique hybrid that combines qualities of both the Touch and also the Nano. It's very colorful and lovely OLED screen is slightly small compared to the touch screen, but the player itself feels a great deal smaller and lighter. They weigh about 2/3 just as much, and it is noticeably smaller in width and height, while being just a hair thicker.

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I have a differnt point of view on that subject but I won't get into that.

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Sorry for the huge review, but I'm really loving the new Zune, and hope this, as well as the excellent reviews some other people have written, will help you decide if it's the right choice for you.

The facts are overwhelming, the stakes are massive, it can be challenging to talk about and even more challenging to deal with it. Technology, guidance, communication... they all compete with human nature. And also each and every situation is unique.

Sorry for the huge review, but I'm really loving the new Zune, and hope this, as well as the excellent reviews some other people have written, will help you decide if it's the right choice for you.

Wait, I just realized that water won't be a hazard anymore...so the only way to fall off a track is into an abyss, or lava.